Collectivism or Individual Rights?

Postby KALKAM » Mon May 14, 2012 1:13 pm

I am an American so naturally the answer is individual rights...and collectivism is in direct opposition.


So I ask you...which side are you on?
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Re: Collectivism or Individual Rights?

Postby crankyhead » Mon May 14, 2012 1:19 pm

I'm right in the middle of the two.

Everyone should be allowed to make their own choices, live their own lives, etc... but, individual rights should not extend to being able to do things that screw over the society you are part of.

You shouldn't act against your own interest by damaging the society that provides you with the opportunities that you have, or have had.

I hope that's clear.
"Because what good are the first amendment freedoms of religion, speech, press, assembly and redress of grievances, if you can't keep a magnum in the nightstand?" - Roy Zimmerman
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Re: Collectivism or Individual Rights?

Postby KALKAM » Mon May 14, 2012 1:46 pm

Society provides me with NOTHING. We make up society, we create it.

The USA constitution has laws protecting people from being "screwed over".

That's fine Cranky. But you do understand that you are not American and that the constitution and bill of rights is Individualist.

Why? Because Individualism holds that man has inalienable rights which cannot be taken away from him by any other man, nor by any number, group or collective of other men. Therefore, each man exists by his own right and for his own sake, not for the sake of the group.

Collectivism holds that man has no rights; that his work, his body and his personality belong to the group; that the group can do with him as it pleases, in any manner it pleases, for the sake of whatever it decides to be its own welfare. Therefore, each man exists only by the permission of the group and for the sake of the group.

The rights of people are not subject to popular vote, nor can they be granted or taken away by anyone except themselves.
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Re: Collectivism or Individual Rights?

Postby crankyhead » Mon May 14, 2012 4:24 pm

I'm not prone to such black and white thinking KALKAM. I believe that there is a middle ground somewhere between the supremacy of the individual, and the supremacy of the collective.

I also believe that this middle ground is what politics is all about.

I also don't believe that society provides you with nothing.

Are you generating your own electricity to power that computer you're using?

Did you design and build that computer yourself without using any pre existing technology?

The telephone line or satellite that allows that computer to connect to the internet... did you build that yourself?

Did you build the internet yourself?

Your operating system...Windows, Linux, Mac, whatever, did you write all the code for that yourself?

Your browser... IE, Chrome, Firefox, Safari, whatever, you wrote that program yourself?

Politifake.org... you wrote out the code for this website as well?

What about the language you speak? You invented English?

You see where I'm going with this? We're all indebted to the society we live in for the opportunities we have.
"Because what good are the first amendment freedoms of religion, speech, press, assembly and redress of grievances, if you can't keep a magnum in the nightstand?" - Roy Zimmerman
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Re: Collectivism or Individual Rights?

Postby KALKAM » Mon May 14, 2012 8:05 pm

Yes, I see where you are going with it but the military is spelled out in the constitution...we can be taxed for it and that stuff was all military stuff. It became our property to use, to improve, to buy shares in...we got a return on our investment.

Here is my issue and I am sure you can appreciate this, gay marriage.

A collectivist would suggest that popular vote should determine the right of an individual...I don't.

But marriage is not an inalienable right....it falls under religious freedom.

On a state level we can pass laws...but if one state votes yes and another votes no our constitution dictates it must be recognized everywhere!

And here is where it gets hairy...for it to become an individual right it must be granted...so the precedence is set for it to be taken away as well...the slippery slope I won't tolerate.

The president alone has NO authority to grant this right or change the constitution...so why bring it up? To divert attention away from the policies we are voting for....it's a parlor trick.

Do they have a right? Of course...my opinion one way or the other is irrelevant when it comes to another person's rights...there is far more to it and that is what concerns me.
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Re: Collectivism or Individual Rights?

Postby JGalt » Thu May 17, 2012 3:45 am

Crankyhead- as far as collectivism- no one decided that I must buy a Mac Computer or a Compaq. I chose to buy my own components with the money I worked hard for... I decided to use Firefox and not chrome or IE. I pay for my service provider with the money I earned. Capitalism does not require that I design these things myself, invent them or generate my own electricity, launch my own sattelites. The market decides who does these things best by the number of customers they get. When the government interferes with the selection process- that's how Solyndra happens... or "No Child Left behind"....or failure of the Senate to produce a budget for three years...or $15 Trillion in debt, or more debt produced by Obama than all previous presidents combined....

Your befuddled thinking is that in the middle there is a perfect mixture of this failed government interference is what is best for the collective. LIke the USPS is a perfect example... Solyndra.... the Chevy FireBolt er I mean Volt. While you believe in it, there are those of us who believe that the "nanny state" is where politicians buy votes to stay in power and it does not contribute to what we refer to as capitalism, while you prefer to call it a form of collectivism. Welfare has a purpose, but there are those on both sides (those who give and those who receive it) whether individual or corporate) that are stealing from what you refer to as "the collective".

Whilst we are not of the Borg mentality, but are of the rugged individualist type..that more should be able to and should get out off their asses and work for their goods and services just like we do.

But, there's the rub- Liberals paint the argument differently, change the subject and never is there agreement on what the problem is or how to resolve it, hence massive debt and a growing segment of an unproductive "collective" as you define it... or as liberal democrats define it- loyal voters that keep them in power.... yet its an unsustainable paradigm.



crankyhead wrote:I'm not prone to such black and white thinking KALKAM. I believe that there is a middle ground somewhere between the supremacy of the individual, and the supremacy of the collective.

I also believe that this middle ground is what politics is all about.

I also don't believe that society provides you with nothing.

Are you generating your own electricity to power that computer you're using?

Did you design and build that computer yourself without using any pre existing technology?

The telephone line or satellite that allows that computer to connect to the internet... did you build that yourself?

Did you build the internet yourself?

Your operating system...Windows, Linux, Mac, whatever, did you write all the code for that yourself?

Your browser... IE, Chrome, Firefox, Safari, whatever, you wrote that program yourself?

Politifake.org... you wrote out the code for this website as well?

What about the language you speak? You invented English?

You see where I'm going with this? We're all indebted to the society we live in for the opportunities we have.
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Re: Collectivism or Individual Rights?

Postby KALKAM » Thu May 17, 2012 11:44 am

Assuming one is secular, along with the inalienable right of superior intellectual abilities over religious minorities, there is also the fact that mankind began our existence as homeless and living in absolute poverty!

But let's ignore that....as superior enlightened intellectuals let's come up with new reasons for poverty instead of studying and learning from the individuals that pulled themselves up and created wealth and civilization!

individuals create society...collectivists need that creation to feel like they are worth something. They know this deep down and resent themselves causing them to lash out at the successful they need....while inventing a false narrative of denial.

But let us never forget the DNC is where most collectivists can be found....and that they were the party of slavery...and that they still hold to the notion that the majority should dictate to the minority how to live!

despicable...
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Re: Collectivism or Individual Rights?

Postby crankyhead » Thu May 17, 2012 11:49 am

JGalt wrote:Whilst we are not of the Borg mentality, but are of the rugged individualist type..that more should be able to and should get out off their asses and work for their goods and services just like we do.



That's the exact point I was trying to illustrate to KALKAM. KALKAM said that society provides him with nothing. I'm saying that nobody exists outside of the collective. The work you do, is ultimately for the benefit of society, because you are providing goods or services to society, and the money you personally earn from your work, well you use that to purchase goods and services from other members of society. No man is an island, so to speak.
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Re: Collectivism or Individual Rights?

Postby KALKAM » Thu May 17, 2012 12:37 pm

crankyhead wrote:
That's the exact point I was trying to illustrate to KALKAM. KALKAM said that society provides him with nothing. I'm saying that nobody exists outside of the collective. The work you do, is ultimately for the benefit of society, because you are providing goods or services to society, and the money you personally earn from your work, well you use that to purchase goods and services from other members of society. No man is an island, so to speak.


Society doesn't provide me with anything...individuals within society, like Mom and Dad provided me with life...

Change the individuals and you change society...

But never lose sight of the greatest means of evil....the majority dictating to the minority...always for what they deem the "greater good of society".

"Society" that oppresses their individuals is stuck in the past...

I know how educating and propaganda works....the talk of the "collective" is an interesting choice...why not say a group of free people who are allies engaging in free trade?

I will reiterate....society "provides" me with NOTHING I need....just like early humans survived long enough to have kids without society. But back then "life wasn't fair"....the weak needed a society to survive...lucky for them strong individuals PROVIDED one to the helpless.
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Re: Collectivism or Individual Rights?

Postby crankyhead » Thu May 17, 2012 4:44 pm

so·ci·e·ty/səˈsīətē/
Noun:
1. The aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.
2. The community of people living in a particular region and having shared customs, laws, and organizations.
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